?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Previous Entry | Next Entry

Unsurprisingly, I watched the season 5 premiere of Supernatural tonight.

Equally unsurprisingly, my reaction is one well... mixed.  Conflicted.  

I haven't done a long meta on my feelings about/analysis of a show here or elsewhere in a long time, mostly because it got to be too draining, but since "Sympathy for the Devil" canonized an idea/insight that some of my friends and I had oh... three seasons ago (after "Houses of the Holy" aired in season 2), I feel compelled to say something. Even if I can't decide on which side of the love-hate coin I'm going to land.

So, way back in season 2, after watching Father Reynolds talk with Sam and Dean about the picture of the Archangel Michael smiting the demons with his firey sword (and well, looking at the significant lingering of the camera on the picture) several of my online friends and I came to the conclusion that Dean's special "purpose" was that he was the physical embodiment of th Archangel Michael, that he would be the only person who could stop the apocalypse or defeat lucifer or whatever the demons were planning.

Of course, at that time, we thought angels didn't exist in the Supernaturalverse.  We also didn't know that Lucifer existed or that Sam was the literal antichrist set up to free Lucifer.  So, in my mind and my friends minds (as far as I know) we invisioned this as more the ultimate "fuck you" from Dean--Dean the guy who's always been shoved to the sidelines, manipulated, taken for granted, called "Daddy's little blunt instrument," "good little soldier," etc.  That Dean would be the only one with the capability to save the world just seemed like an incredibly appropriate and empowering fate for Dean.  A ray of hope and self-worth in a sea of psyche-crushing low self-esteem. I suppose I was asking for too much.

Instead, in "Sympathy for the Devil," we learn that Dean is indeed the physical manifestation of the Archangel Michael, in that he is literally Michael's vessel.  Only, the angels don't want Dean for his brains or ingenuity or resiliant spirit, no, they want him to surrender himself completely, to give his consent so that Michael can take over--hijack his mind and body--and bring about "heaven on Earth"... This is one of those cases where I hate being right, which happens far too often with Supernatural. I don't quite know what to say.  What a frigging disapointment.  So, what? We're supposed to believe that Dean really is a pathetic excuse for a human being?  Nothing more than a tool to be used by his father, the demons, and now the angels to do their bidding? I want some character development goddamnit.  Not that Dean's mental state and complete lack of self-worth or self-esteem is necessarily unrealistic considering what he's been through (frankly, after 40 years in hell, I'm surprised he remembers how to drive a car or dial a telephone or that he can sleep at all), but it would just be really nice to see him start to believe in himself a little. -- Especially since I'm getting the sense that the fate of humanity hangs on that.

Then there's the somewhat unfortunately squicky comparison of demonic and angelic possession. Demonic possession is clearly like rape--there's no consent (most of the time), it's a violation, it's all bad, etc.  The angels seem to pride themselves on how they get consent first, except that it also seems to be the most frustrating thing for them--unlike their demonic neices and nephews, they have to hang around relatively powerless, harassing people until they trick them into saying "yes." I'm just not sure what we're supposed to take from the angels' approach... is this a story of "yes isn't yes if it's under duress"? Really, we got it already guys, angels and demons both suck.  

And speaking of angels, just how stupid ARE they (or at least Zachariah's group of them)? Did they honestly think they'd be able to do anything that would make Dean "consent" to being possessed?  Dean spent 40 years in HELL.  He's been down the road of sacrificing himself for people, of having other sacrifice themselves for him, he knows all the crap that comes with it, and the worst possible fate(s) he could be condemning himself (or Sam or Bobby) to if he doesn't do what the angels ask.  This means hello stupid angels, you have no leverage whatsoever to make Dean do what you want.  I'm not really complaining there, just not entirely sure I'm happy with the characterization of the villainous angels.  Villains are more frightening when they're smart and don't spend all their time pontificating around unnecessarily slow dipping devices or taunting the (anti)heros with useless threats.

But what's really got me frustrated, more than the let down of Dean's angelic tool-dom, is Dean's attitude towards Sam.  Has he really learned nothing?  Hello, dude, you were the one who made the deal and went to hell and started the whole thing in motion--you were set up; Sam was set up too.  Yes, Sam trusted Ruby over you, and that eventually freed Lucifer.  But YOU also thought that killing Lilith would do the trick--right up until the angels told you otherwise; you just didn't want to hunt her, because your experiences along those lines had been disasterous, and you didn't want Sam using his powers.  But let's reexamine.  It wasn't Sam using his powers or killing Lilith that freed Lucifer... actually, it's not entirely clear that lilith had to be killed with Sam's powers (although, if not then what exactly was the point of Azazel's whole intricate scheme?), but I digress.  It was Sam killing Lilith with his powers at exactly the right time and place after 65 other seals had been broken; anything else wouldn't have worked.  So, Dean, you can't really even blame Sam for that--if anything, blame the angels for setting him up.  Yes, you were right, Ruby was bad all along, but haven't you gotten the message yet? The whole point of Ruby and Castiel (sorry Cas, you're a kickass dude now, but you were totally a bad-angel chump for much of season 4) seducing Sam and Dean was to split them up, sow discord, make it so they would keep secrets, not trust, etc.  And now, that's exactly what you're doing, Dean--distrusting Sam, possibly shutting him out.  Haven't you gotten a clue in the last 4 seasons that you really are stronger as a family?  Yes, that's right, warts and faults and all, you and Sam together are near-unstoppable, so unstoppable that every bigbad that comes your way tries immediately to split you up.  Yes, you're hurt, but don't you understand that right now, you're letting them win?  (Also, what happened to the attitude we saw when Dean left that non-hateful voicemail on Sam's cell in "Lucifer Rising," you know, the one Sam never got to hear? Where'd that Dean go?  Or did the writers just conveniently forget about that little snippet of character development?)

The episode was not without encouragement, though.  Dean's speech in Bobby's hospital room is exactly what I've been hoping to hear out of Dean since the mytharc began to unwind.  Humans saying "back off" to angels and demons alike and claiming Earth as their home.  Brilliant!  With Dean at the center, using his amazing powers of persuasion, charisma, and never-give-up attitude to lead the charge. (Notice how 50% of the time a particularly nasty demon is hellbent on killing Dean, he's able to coax the demon's host into reasserting himself and thwarting the demon's plan?  Yeah, that's the kind of inspirational power that just might make a difference.)  Of course, Dean himself doesn't believe this is possible.  He's tired, worn out, and has no faith in himself (if he ever did), not helped by his feelings of failure towards the "one thing he did right" (i.e., Sam).  But what I want to see is Dean taking on that can-do attitue for real.  That's the battle I want to see.  That's the ending/fate/challenge I want for Dean.  Is that asking too much?  Or must we suffer through even more breakdown of Dean's psyche to the point where it is completely imposible for him to ever recover, making him one of the most victimized characters ever? 

Still, even if Dean does find some faith (in himself) and get his groove back (and maybe recover his wonder twin relationship with Sam along the way) I had a sinking feeling hearing Zachariah talk about Michael and how Dean's his one, only, special vessel.  So, if Michael is on the side of Zachariah and not Castiel (who seems to have found the long-lost god who started this whole mess?), then it stands to reason, Michael may need to be dispatched.  Of course, Michael can't fully manifest unless he pops into a vessel, and the only vessel possible is Dean.  So if you want to kill him... Is it just me, or is anyone else sensing we might have another "Harry is a Horcrux" situation on our hands wherin Dean will have to commit suicide to kill his enemy? Anyone?  What's gonna be the catch to get him out of that one?  Or is that going to be how Dean goes out in a blaze of glory?

I guess I'll have to keep watching and see.  I'm just...ambivalent and conflicted for the time being.  Here's to hoping Dean gets some good psychotherapy somewhere along the way.

Comments

( 26 comments — Leave a comment )
darthnikki
Sep. 11th, 2009 12:05 pm (UTC)
Okay so I guess I sghould start out by saying that I haven't even seen this episode yet, but I feel I need to address a few poionts that you made. Hope that's okay...anyways here we go:

You say: *But what's really got me frustrated, more than the let down of Dean's angelic tool-dom, is Dean's attitude towards Sam. Has he really learned nothing? Hello, dude, you were the one who made the deal and went to hell and started the whole thing in motion--you were set up; Sam was set up too.*

My response: Yes they were both set up, and yes they were manipualted into doing exactly what both sides wanted from them, but lets not forget that John was initaily meant to be the first seal that sety it all in motion, he just didn't break, which leads me to believe that Deans time in hell was FAR worse than his fathers. They 'wanted' him to break so stepped up their campaign.

You say: *But YOU also thought that killing Lilith would do the trick--right up until the angels told you otherwise; you just didn't want to hunt her, because your experiences along those lines had been disasterous*

My response: I don't recall Dean EVER wanting to kill Lilith apart from maybe in season 3 before he went to hell, if that's what you mean then fine but otherwise, Dean NEVER wanted to hunt or kill Lilith, that was Sam all the way and rightly so, if some skank ass demon had kiolled my brother and sent him to hell I'd want the bitch dead too.

You Say: * It wasn't Sam using his powers or killing Lilith that freed Lucifer... actually, it's not entirely clear that lilith had to be killed with Sam's powers (although, if not then what exactly was the point of Azazel's whole intricate scheme?)*

My response: Erm sorry but yes it was, the whole point of the 'gifted children' was for that sole purpose. YED's father told him that in the final episode I think it was. That he needed a specail child to kill Lilith and in doing so it would free him from his prison. Hence by using the psychic powers, because other than the knife and the colt, what other way is there to kill a demon?

paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 08:15 am (UTC)
Hey, sorry for taking so long getting back to you; I wrote responses three separate times, and first my computer crashed, then livejournal froze, and finally there was an honest-to-god power outage! Hope you’ve had a chance to see the episode by now; some of my comments were actually geared more towards the execution than the concepts…

Yes they were both set up, and yes they were manipualted into doing exactly what both sides wanted from them, but lets not forget that John was initaily meant to be the first seal that sety it all in motion, he just didn't break, which leads me to believe that Deans time in hell was FAR worse than his fathers. They 'wanted' him to break so stepped up their campaign.

I completely agree with you here, at least insofar as Dean’s time in hell was way worse than John’s.

On the other hand, I’ve never really believed Alastair’s assertion that John was supposed to be the one to break the first seal. It may be true that the demons thought John could break the seal (essentially that they guessed wrong and bet on the wrong Winchester), that is a definite possibility, but two other things are for sure: 1) Regardless of whether Alastair was telling the truth about what the Demons thought, telling Dean that John survived 100+ years of torment when he broke in 30 served the purpose of demoralizing Dean and making him doubt and hate himself even more. 2) Whether the Demonic Powers that Be actually thought John was going to break the seal or not, it’s pretty clear that it never could have been John; it could only be Dean. According to what the angels told Dean, the righteous man who breaks the seal, is the only one who can end it; the only one who can defeat Lucifer. Considering we now know Dean is Michael’s vessel (and the only vessel Michael can use) and Michael is supposed to be the only one powerful enough to defeat Lucifer, it stands to reason that because Dean is Michael’s vessel (and thus is theoretically the only one able to “end it”) only Dean could have broken the seal.

What does that mean? Well, either that the demons were just wrong and their attempts with John never would have worked. Or that the demons knew John couldn’t break the seal, but delighted in tormenting Dean by implying that he was so much weaker than his father.

Again, not disagreeing with you. :D

I don't recall Dean EVER wanting to kill Lilith apart from maybe in season 3 before he went to hell, if that's what you mean then fine but otherwise, Dean NEVER wanted to hunt or kill Lilith, that was Sam all the way and rightly so, if some skank ass demon had kiolled my brother and sent him to hell I'd want the bitch dead too.

Dean was all for killing Lilith if it would stop her from breaking the seals and stop the apocalypse (in “Lucifer Rising” he keeps asking Zachariah, how, how do I kill Lilith), and he certainly had no fear of killing her when he dragged Chuck to the motel where she was attempting to seduce Sam (of course, his focus was more on stopping Lilith from killing Sam, but his solution had the potential to kill Lilith, had she stuck around). Dean didn’t go running after Lilith in season 3 until the very end, because he didn’t know she held his contract, and they didn’t know how to kill her for sure, or if trying to kill her might void his contract and kill Sam instead. In season 4, it was more a matter of not knowing how to kill her safely. Trying to do it with the knife didn’t work very well, after all, and well, he had Angels telling him “not yet”—that wasn’t Dean objecting, that was him listening to angels who were asking him to wait.
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:20 am (UTC)
Not a problem, I thought I had offended you actually and that's why you didn't respond, but as my laptop is also on the side of being crap I understand completely :)

Thanks for getting back to me, you made some really interesting and valid points and I found myself agreeing with some of them. I'll say which in each post I respond to...still glad you responded ? lol.


**Dean was all for killing Lilith if it would stop her from breaking the seals and stop the apocalypse (in “Lucifer Rising” he keeps asking Zachariah, how, how do I kill Lilith), and he certainly had no fear of killing her when he dragged Chuck to the motel where she was attempting to seduce Sam (of course, his focus was more on stopping Lilith from killing Sam, but his solution had the potential to kill Lilith, had she stuck around). Dean didn’t go running after Lilith in season 3 until the very end, because he didn’t know she held his contract, and they didn’t know how to kill her for sure, or if trying to kill her might void his contract and kill Sam instead. In season 4, it was more a matter of not knowing how to kill her safely. Trying to do it with the knife didn’t work very well, after all, and well, he had Angels telling him “not yet”—that wasn’t Dean objecting, that was him listening to angels who were asking him to wait.**


I forgot about that, I've only seen the epiusode once, we're still waiting for the bloody boxset here in the UK, so was relying on my amazing memory **cough** to remember what was said and happened. But yeah I see your point now. And I completely agree with you on what Alister said and what the demons have been saying. They played on Deans greatedt fears and played them well...arse-holes that they are!!
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:41 am (UTC)
Hey there, not offended in the slightest... I just gave up on trying to comment for a while after the third time, I'd written a comment that hit the character limit and promptly lost it).
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:45 am (UTC)
Dude how quick was your reply??? lol...are you lurking?? :0)
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:52 am (UTC)
Not lurking... just online to post my reaction to this week's episode and saw your reply!
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 08:16 am (UTC)
No, Dean’s problem the whole time was with Sam using his powers to kill Lilith. Yes, that ended up being the problem, but as I say below, we don’t know what would have happened if Sam had killed Lilith with the knife or if he’d killed her with his powers at a different time and place; if the seal really did require the time, place, method, and individual to be just right, then that falls apart a little bit. What Dean’s really mad at is Sam listening to Ruby over him, he says so, but he still keeps trying to tie it to killing Lilith. Yep that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back, but that’s not really what’s bugging Dean. If the angels hadn’t manipulated them both, that never would have happened.

I went back and reread what I wrote, and I realized I was failing to take into account the effect of the voicemail…

Dean thinks that Sam made the decision to go ahead and follow Ruby and kill Lilith either in spite of the olive branch Dean extended in his voicemail, or that Sam simply refused to listen to the voicemail at all (thus evidencing his choice of Ruby over Dean).

Meanwhile Sam got the voicemail of “Dean” saying he hates him and wants to kill/hunt Sam and telling Sam that he’s a monster—he made his choice thinking he’d lost everything. His attitude reminds me of that of the Operative in Serenity--he’s trying to do awful deeds because he thinks it will result in a better world; Sam realized he was doing inexcusably dark things, and he certainly didn’t think he was going to get to live in/benefit from the better world; he just thought he’d lost everything (i.e., the only thing that ever really mattered—Dean) and maybe the one good thing he could do was save the world… only instead of saving it he destroyed it. Sam’s going to Dean, thinking Dean hates him and sees him as a monster and not knowing that a big part of Dean’s sense of betrayal is tied up in Sam making that final choice. Realizing that, I’m a lot less frustrated with the Winchesters for focusing on their own sense of personal betrayal rather than uniting in outrage against the angels and demons who manipulated them to that place.
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:23 am (UTC)
I agree whole heartedly with everything you said there. It also makes me wonder if the angels were blocking the boys from reaching each other, or if they even have the power to do that. But yeah what you said makes perfect sense.
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 08:17 am (UTC)
Erm sorry but yes it was, the whole point of the 'gifted children' was for that sole purpose. YED's father told him that in the final episode I think it was. That he needed a specail child to kill Lilith and in doing so it would free him from his prison. Hence by using the psychic powers, because other than the knife and the colt, what other way is there to kill a demon?

Actually, that’s not entirely correct. I realized I wasn’t being very clear, so I went back and re-watched “Lucifer Rising” to double check. Lucifer tells Azazel that Lilith is the key to freeing him (Lucifer) and then he tells Azazel that he must get a child, a very special child, but never states what that child’s purpose is. Ruby tells Sam that everything Lilith and Azazel did was to get him to that point, and also that it had to be Sam, could only be Sam. But is Ruby telling the truth? She doesn’t really have a good track record, after all. And it makes me wonder what would have happened if Sam (or someone else) had killed Lilith with the Colt or the knife at the same place and time. How about if Sam had managed to prematurely kill Lilith with his powers? What if Lilith had’t been able to vacate her host in “Monster at the End of this Book” and had come face-to-face with an archangel? Would it have broken the seal or saved it? Interestingly, Ruby also tells Sam that Lucifer will repay him in ways he can’t even imagine. We still don’t know what that means, but it makes me suspect that breaking the final seal may not be the entirety of Sam’s “purpose.”

My complaint here is that unlike some other aspects of the mythology (e.g., a “righteous man spilling blood in hell” is explicitly, specifically what broke the first seal), there’s still a lot of the mythology around Sam that’s not clear. What exactly was the mechanism that broke the seal? A human using demonic powers to kill the first demon? The act of killing the first demon at the right time and place? Were demonic powers the only thing that could have killed Lilith? Or was it just generally a pure, good, loving, caring, self-sacrificing human taking the path of good intentions all the way to the bitter end and bringing hell to earth as a result—the ultimate downfall, if you will? My guess is all of the above, but this is one area where I would like a more thorough explanation. (Yes, I'm being picky.)
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:26 am (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying, as I read it I thought you meant that Sams powers had nothing and he himself had nothing to do with Lilith and ole red himself from her dying to him rising. I understand now, and it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if she'd been killed by other means and in another time and place. And hey I'm picky too, I want all the ins and outs of (as we say here in England) a cats arse. I want to know every little thing that leads to that, makes it work and why? But hey on the upside reckon we'd make great hunters, right? ;)
darthnikki
Sep. 11th, 2009 12:05 pm (UTC)
You say: *Yes, you were right, Ruby was bad all along, but haven't you gotten the message yet?*

My response: Do you really think he cares that he was right all along? The matter of the fact was okay they were both maniupualted, yes to that I agree, but Ruby was there way before the angels, and if Sam had LISTENEDF in the first place, he wouldn't have been able to be manipualted by her, if they killed her in the first place he wouldn't have been in the position to be manipuated. I'm not saying Dean is innocent in all this, he trusted angels who had their own agenda, but after convincing Cas to help he got away with the sole purpose to put right the wrongs.

You say: *The whole point of Ruby and Castiel (sorry Cas, you're a kickass dude now, but you were totally a bad-angel chump for much of season 4) seducing Sam and Dean was to split them up, sow discord, make it so they would keep secrets, not trust, etc.*

My response: sam started that as soon as he told his brother that he didn't know where Ruby was. Okay I agree that yeah they were forced apart and they were both wrong on that account, but dude Sam started that ball rolling right from the start by lying to his brother. Does Dean have a right to fear his brothers mojo?? Who knows, probably not, Sam is trying or was at least to use the power for good. Dean unfortunately is his fathers son, and anything like that, unless its a natural gift, eg, not given by a demon, then its wrong and should be avoided. Maybe he needs to use his own mind on that, but kids learn by example on things like that, John wasn't exactly a stunning role model.

You say: *And now, that's exactly what you're doing, Dean--distrusting Sam, possibly shutting him out. Haven't you gotten a clue in the last 4 seasons that you really are stronger as a family?*

My response: You want Dean to just forget that not only did Sam ignore his own brother, but he also tried to strangle him? Would you trust someone completely after something like that? He needs time to run through it all, the past year hasn't been easy for either brother, but to have Dean just trust Sam right from the start would be totally unrealastic. He knows they're stronger as a family, it's all he's ever wanted.

You say: *Yes, you're hurt, but don't you understand that right now, you're letting them win? (Also, what happened to the attitude we saw when Dean left that non-hateful voicemail on Sam's cell in "Lucifer Rising," you know, the one Sam never got to hear? Where'd that Dean go? Or did the writers just conveniently forget about that little snippet of character development?)*

My response: The writers do seem to forget stuff like that, and to be honest I would have thought that were Sam was when Ruby reappeared he wouldn't have waited for Ruby to say 'hey guess what I'm here to help' he would have just killed her. He was fueled by anger, grief and hatred, no way would he have listened to her. NO WAY. He would have been wondering why she didn't offer to train him sooner, Sam aint dumb and for me that's how his character was treated in season 4, like a blind fool following after the demon who said she remembered what it was like to be human. Remember Sams favourite question is always 'why?' so why wasn't he asking her that? As for Dean being hurt.....he needs time to heal, from alot of things, and there's no saying that he ever will to be honest, I think Dean is broken, and I personally have a very bad feeling that Dean's going to die in the end, like you say later on a HP horcrux storyline. Dean has always been the sacrificail lamb, first for his father, then his brother, and now maybe for the world. I'm looking forward to but dreading the end of this series. I hope I didn't offend with any of my comments, it was never my intention, but I just felt I had to add my two peneth. Anyways hope you enjoy the rest of the season, lets hope that rather than seperating the boys they start to heal the rift that heaven and hell began.
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 09:02 am (UTC)
Do you really think he cares that he was right all along? The matter of the fact was okay they were both maniupualted, yes to that I agree, but Ruby was there way before the angels, and if Sam had LISTENEDF in the first place, he wouldn't have been able to be manipualted by her, if they killed her in the first place he wouldn't have been in the position to be manipuated. I'm not saying Dean is innocent in all this, he trusted angels who had their own agenda, but after convincing Cas to help he got away with the sole purpose to put right the wrongs.

I don’t really think Dean is feeling much of anything clearly right now, so no, I don’t actually think he feels vindicated that he was right. To the contrary, he’s heartbroken that he was right and beating himself up about not being able to stop Sam from following her. He’s self-hating, sure, but he used to have influence over Sam; now he doesn’t, so part of him is only able to reconcile this in believing that Sam must have changed and isn’t his brother anymore.

They interacted with Ruby before the angels, but I hardly think we can be confident she was there before the angels. After all, Castiel’s garrison has been hang out on Earth watching things for a long time. They may not have acted first, but they certainly made sure the demons had every chance they needed to get the Winchesters to play into their hands (and let’s not forget that Zachariah’s angels actually wanted Dean to go to hell… if he didn’t go, he couldn’t break the seal and they couldn’t get their apocalypse).

But there’s also an interesting parallel. Sam trusted Ruby in spite of his better judgment, and in spite of Deans. But Dean too trusted the Angels in spite of his beliefs, gut instinct, and initial reactions. I’m sure there’s at least a little self-loathing in Dean lashing out at Sam. After all, Dean’s trusting of Cas paralleled Sam trusting Ruby; Dean didn’t trust him, then gradually he started to see him as a source of valuable information. If Cas hadn’t decided to betray Zachariah at the last possible moment (and yes, he’d tried before but got reprogrammed, I will give him that), he would have been doing the exact same thing as Ruby—gaining a Winchester brother’s trust and reliance, promising one thing, and then delivering the apocalypse.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “but after convincing Cas to help he got away with the sole purpose to put right the wrongs”??
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:28 am (UTC)

**I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “but after convincing Cas to help he got away with the sole purpose to put right the wrongs”??**


IU basically meant the harsh words and blows that had been exchanged, all the lies shared between both of them, he was trying to right the wrongs that they'd both done to each other. Does that make more sense?
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:42 am (UTC)
Ah, yes, definitely makes more sense. Dean was totally trying to do that, but of course, Sam didn't know because the angels frakked with the voicemail. In fact, when Sam heard Dean calling to him at the convent, I'm betting Sam thought Dean was coming to kill him (and believed he deserved it).
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 09:03 am (UTC)
sam started that as soon as he told his brother that he didn't know where Ruby was. Okay I agree that yeah they were forced apart and they were both wrong on that account, but dude Sam started that ball rolling right from the start by lying to his brother. Does Dean have a right to fear his brothers mojo?? Who knows, probably not, Sam is trying or was at least to use the power for good. Dean unfortunately is his fathers son, and anything like that, unless its a natural gift, eg, not given by a demon, then its wrong and should be avoided. Maybe he needs to use his own mind on that, but kids learn by example on things like that, John wasn't exactly a stunning role model.

I’m not trying to play the brothers against each other or say one fucked up more than the other (Sam’s fuckups destroyed the world, but Dean’s fuckups betrayed his beliefs). I’m not saying Sam was right to lie (that was a very in-character; Dean also lied about not remembering hell; and they’ve both suffered from their fair share of lies, half-truths, and omitting important details right from the Pilot episode) or that Dean is right or wrong for fearing Sam’s power. Yes, it’s scary. And no, John wasn’t the best role model, but he had his reasons.

That wasn’t my point. What I’m saying is, way back in Season 1, the Winchesters realized they’re stronger together. Bad things happen when they’re split up, and as a result, their enemies are usually trying to split them up. It’s completely understandable and in character that right now they don’t trust each other (or at least that Dean doesn’t trust Sam), but it’s still a shame that they’re both so emotionally overwhelmed at the moment that they don’t have enough breathing room to step back and realize that all of this has had exactly that effect—splitting them up, taking away their trust. It was concealing things and lies that got them to split up in the first place, and their splitting up resulted in the apocalypse.

You want Dean to just forget that not only did Sam ignore his own brother, but he also tried to strangle him? Would you trust someone completely after something like that? He needs time to run through it all, the past year hasn't been easy for either brother, but to have Dean just trust Sam right from the start would be totally unrealastic. He knows they're stronger as a family, it's all he's ever wanted.

See above. No, I do NOT want Dean to forget that Sam ignored him (although he didn’t ignore him as much as Dean thinks—Sam didn’t ever get Dean’s voicemail) or that he attacked him (although honestly, I’m having more trouble forgiving Dean for hitting below the belt by parroting John’s infamous “if you walk out that door, don’t you ever come back”—I understand completely why Dean did it, it was just possibly also the cruelest thing he could possibly do to Sam knowing their history and Sam’s psychology… understandable, but really, really bad). I definitely don’t expect him to trust Sam completely now, and possibly not ever, but you never know. The problem is that he’s responding by closing Sam out completely … an emotionally valid response; a response that fits perfectly with the character development; but one that has a big plotting flaw in terms of believability down the road.

Dean is actually starting to believe that Sam isn’t his family and maybe never was. He has good reasons (seeing the child you raised become a sociopathic serial killer and repeatedly ignore, reject, and attract you isn’t just something you brush off). I completely agree!!
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:40 am (UTC)
I know you weren't trying to do that, play the brothers off one another, I know that you felt right in fighting in Sams corner, i do the same thing for Dean..but I hide it well ;0)

**but Dean’s fuckups betrayed his beliefs** Err, what do you mean??

*See above. No, I do NOT want Dean to forget that Sam ignored him (although he didn’t ignore him as much as Dean thinks—Sam didn’t ever get Dean’s voicemail) or that he attacked him (although honestly, I’m having more trouble forgiving Dean for hitting below the belt by parroting John’s infamous “if you walk out that door, don’t you ever come back”—I understand completely why Dean did it, it was just possibly also the cruelest thing he could possibly do to Sam knowing their history and Sam’s psychology… understandable, but really, really bad). I definitely don’t expect him to trust Sam completely now, and possibly not ever, but you never know. The problem is that he’s responding by closing Sam out completely … an emotionally valid response; a response that fits perfectly with the character development; but one that has a big plotting flaw in terms of believability down the road.*


I'm glad you see it that way, I do too, I know the writers like angst, but they have to make it believable, and start to repair the rip thats happened.

As For Dean parroting John...I think that was the point in that scene, it was a parallel of sorts, except Sam was leaving to be with a demon who he just saved....I think it was a perfect response, not the words because for me, Dean would NEVER say something like that to his brother...again with the writing inconsistancy....picky bunch aren't we? I thnk both the boys have major issues, Dean with being left, and Sam?? well sam just has issues with everything, I love the guy but you have to face up to the consequences of your actions at some point. Has Dean?? Kinda, in my opinion, he knows what he's done, and I think it's that knowledge that is slowly killing him.
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:50 am (UTC)
Ahh, about Dean. Dean fucked up by trusting the angels. He finally gave in to the whole "angels are good, they say good things about me, they say I can stop this" and he signed his soul over to them with his little pledge to Cas... and it all backfired on him.

Of course, Dean has always believed in not trusting *any* supernatural beings. Granted, that can be unfair (racist as Ruby always used to say) since there are some good or at least innocuous supernatural entities out there (think "Bloodlust"). He's also firmly disbelived in god. So, OK, he can see "angels" so he has to believe in them, but he didn't have to trust them, ally with them, or start drinking their koolaide. But in the end, that's exactly what he did, thus betraying his core beliefs, and playing right into Zachariah's hands. While he didn't directly cause the apocalypse, Dean did betray his own moral code, and that's probably going to take a long time to heal from.

On the Dean Parroting John issue, I agree with you. That's Dean at his lowest moment. He felt betrayed by Sam (rightfully so) who he raised and loved more than anything. So, he lashed out with all the pain inside, and of course said the most unforgivable thing he could... which of course, had the effect of getting Sam to do exactly what he didn't want because it signalled to Sam that Dean had given up on him, and it triggered Sam's pain around the one thing he never quite forgave John for (while making it look like Dean agreed with John on the one thing they never saw eye-to-eye on). On some level Dean knew that saying those words would have exactly that effect, but he was lashing out like a hurt animal acting on base instinct and coudn't stop himself. He regretted the words the moment they left his mouth, and is now living with the consequences. What a mess!

And I'm with you on Dean's understanding of what he's done slowly killig him.
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 09:04 am (UTC)
My fear is that if the writers want Sam and Dean to reunite at some point and if their reuniting and taking a stand against the powers of heaven and hell to try to win earth for the humans is going to be pivotal to the outcome of the series/season, then the writers are treading on thin ice. Push them apart much more (and episode 5.2 certainly didn’t help in that regard) and there really isn’t anything you can do to believably pull them back together. Sure, you can write them back together, you can set them up to forgive and once again trust and have each other’s backs, but if you push too far (and they may have already crossed that point) there’s no way to pull off a believable reunification. The earlier they start—the earlier one or both brothers (and my focus has been on Dean because realistically, he’s the one who has the power—a rarity in their relationship—to start the process of their reunification) snaps out of their emotional overload and realizes they’re still being manipulated, the more likely they’ll be able to get around to a believable reunion and actually be “stronger together” by the end of the season.

The writers do seem to forget stuff like that, and to be honest I would have thought that were Sam was when Ruby reappeared he wouldn't have waited for Ruby to say 'hey guess what I'm here to help' he would have just killed her. He was fueled by anger, grief and hatred, no way would he have listened to her. NO WAY. He would have been wondering why she didn't offer to train him sooner, Sam aint dumb and for me that's how his character was treated in season 4, like a blind fool following after the demon who said she remembered what it was like to be human. Remember Sams favourite question is always 'why?' so why wasn't he asking her that? As for Dean being hurt.....he needs time to heal, from alot of things, and there's no saying that he ever will to be honest, I think Dean is broken, and I personally have a very bad feeling that Dean's going to die in the end, like you say later on a HP horcrux storyline. Dean has always been the sacrificail lamb, first for his father, then his brother, and now maybe for the world. I'm looking forward to but dreading the end of this series. I hope I didn't offend with any of my comments, it was never my intention, but I just felt I had to add my two peneth. Anyways hope you enjoy the rest of the season, lets hope that rather than seperating the boys they start to heal the rift that heaven and hell began.

I’m right with you there; sometimes I think the writers do a little to much planning as they go—Kripke said on the commentaries for the season 4 episodes that they didn’t have a lot of the finer points of the mythology planned out in advance, they had vague ideas and the gist of what they wanted to have happen and then they made stuff up as they went along. I think sometimes that results in the writers seeming to forget details, events, plots, and character development that seem significant at the time, but then get shoved aside later because the story winds up going in another direction. It’s a bit frustrating.

And sadly, it looks like the boys aren’t going to be starting to heal their rift any time soon.
darthnikki
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:42 am (UTC)
I agree with all your above comment, and very well said, It scares me just where the writers are going with the story. I'm not going to see the episodes until they're put on British tv. I'm trying to be good and wait to see them. Don't know how long I'll last like, but here's hoping xxx
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 10:51 am (UTC)
Good luck there! That's braver than anyone else I know in the UK. I used to have one friend who waited, but she gave up on that around the beginning of Season 3!
darthnikki
Sep. 11th, 2009 12:06 pm (UTC)
Whoops...really sorry both comments were both so long, didn't realise I waffled on for that length of time.
paleogymnast
Sep. 18th, 2009 09:04 am (UTC)
No problem. :)
a_phoenixdragon
Sep. 11th, 2009 06:33 pm (UTC)
I was just glad that we didn't get back an insane blubbering mess in S4 - which would have been highly realistic in many ways. It shos how strong he was and resilient. But also, they did show in S4 how Dean tried continually to reach out, to talk to Sam (Sammy's unlitmate dream, lol!) only to be rejected, ignored - or flat out lied to.

I know he'll forgive Sam eventually - and you know he thought this through - manipulation and Demon!Blood only go so far. Sam even STOPPED for a long time in S4 - only to get that wild hair laid just right and then he was off again. Not saying both boys didn't contribute to the general secrecy and lies - but Sam ditched his brother when Dean needed him most and did his own thing, trying to work out his big-brother/daddy issues. He was hurting and not thinking - but really, I thought Dean said what needed to be said. The whole cellphone voicemail thing happened before he found out the real score - and I'm sure that is the reason that the Krip'll give. I understand everyone's shock/dismay/upset over this - but I frankly am in line with Dean's honesty and genuine hurt over all this. He didn't want to say it - kept pushing to not have to - but it needed to be said. It looked like it was hurting him as much as it hurt Sam - and that was why I could accept it. It won't last - Dean loves Sam too much for that - but it will take some time, I'm sure. This has been coming for a year and a half.

Eek!! Sorry for the rambly!!

*Snuggles*
paleogymnast
Sep. 12th, 2009 01:05 am (UTC)
I know, this episode was like watching a sudden flashback to season one's "no chick flick moments"... I seriously haf-expected Dean to say it at a couple of points, except I knew it wouldn't be coming, because they're sadly beyond being able to joke about it, and beyond being able to talk.

Hmm, now the whole cell phone voicemail thing did happen before he knew the real score, but then again, Dean also learned they BOTH had been royally set up (and that the angels were keeping him from being able to give critical information to Sam). That will probably be the reason Kripke gives, you're right, but it still feels a little uneven. It may just be that we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop. After all, Dean doesn't yet know what Sam heard in the voicemail and Sam doesn't know what Dean actually said, so a lot of how their reactions are playing out maybe over/under reactions based on their very scewed perspectives on what the other is actually thinking or feeling. Actually, come to think of it, Dean is probably feeling very betrayed that Sam didn't listen to his voicemail, that he reached out even after flipping out, and Sam still went forward trusted Ruby anyway. Whereas Sam went with Ruby and followed her plan only because he thought it was a last act of redemption--save the world for others though his life as he knew it was over--kind of move. After all, if Dean hates him, what does he have to lose? Sam's appologizing thinking Dean still thinks he's a monster... hell, Sam is probably really, really confused by Dean's behavior.

So, I'm agreeing with myself and with you. My point? I think my point is that this issue doesn't feel done. I'm not sure if we're supposed to take that "talk" they had at the end of "Sympathy for the Devil" to be the end of it (it probably will be for a while), but this situation feels like a badly infected wound that is roughly scabbed over and will have to be picked at some point, or it will fester too long and everything will die. Who knows, knowing Kripke, we may be waiting all season for a revisitation.
a_phoenixdragon
Sep. 12th, 2009 04:39 am (UTC)
Hear, hear, love!! Well said! and yeah - don't think that this was the end of THAT conversation!! You raised some good points - never thought about the fact they've never talked about the cellphone call - and yeah, that would raise some issues as well. wonder if that talk will be the turning point for those two.

Me? I'm just enjoying the rift right now, cause I'm sick that way, lol!! Missed my angst and OMG!Heartbreak *grins*. Hopefully it will get cleared up, but one must wallow a bit, lol! Good to see the 'old' Dean back though! Whoo-hoo!! a fire-brand that one!!

*Smishes you tight*
paleogymnast
Sep. 12th, 2009 05:51 am (UTC)
I'm not sure good ol' Dean really *is* back... he sure sounded like it in Bobby's hotel room, but his confession to Sam in the parkinglot sure makes it clear he's got a long way to go. I just have hope they'll figure out a way to get him there... believably. Because Dean's rant about taking on heaven and hell and wining earth for the humans was music to my ears.
( 26 comments — Leave a comment )

Profile

Sad Dean
paleogymnast
paleogymnast

Latest Month

July 2018
S M T W T F S
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    
Powered by LiveJournal.com
Designed by Tiffany Chow